Episode 4: Wait to Worry
Sam Zizzi on the Urgency of Mindfulness, the Value of Stillness, and the Lessons in Grief
About This Episode
Today’s guest is Sam Zizzi (@DoctorSizzle). Sam is a father of three, an outdoor enthusiast, and a lover of travel and culture. He is passionate about bringing mindfulness to the masses, not to improve performance, but to foster self-awareness and compassion.
As a Professor of Sport, Exercise, and Performance Psychology at West Virginia University, he guides his students in their mindfulness research, and he teaches classes at the undergraduate and graduate levels. He and his colleagues have published two books focused on the integration of mindfulness into sport environments.
Sam is also my former advisor! We really dive deep into the nature of mindfulness and the value of having both formal and informal ways of cultivating presence. Sam talks about the value of grief, why enthusiasm is a game changer, and why we shouldn’t get too precious with the how and when of mindfulness practice. I had a blast having this conversation - I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!
Links and Resources
Tao Te Ching (Translated by Stephen Mitchell)
Sacred Hoops (by Phil Jackson and Hugh Delehanty)
Zen and the Art of Helping (by David Brandon)
Rational Emotive (Behavior) Therapy
Cognitive Defusion (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy)
Being Mindful in Sport and Exercise Psychology (by Sam Zizzi and Mark Andersen)
Episode Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
mindfulness, present moment, athletes, coaches, grief, sport psychology, stillness
Sam Zizzi 00:00
To be truly mindful, it's urgent, like right now, this conversation we're having, it's the only thing that matters and the only thing is guaranteed is what's happening right now. So, you know, for the listeners, it's it's thinking of today, this is the day, it's the best day of the year. It's the only day of the year. That's it.
Pete Kadushin 00:30
Welcome to the mental training lab. I'm Pete Kadushin, your host, and my job is to have fun conversations that leave you with actionable tools, little experiments that will help you improve your mindset and mental skills so that you can do the things you love at a higher level. Today's guest is Sam Zizzi. Sam is a father of three and outdoor enthusiast and a lover of traveling culture. He is passionate about bringing mindfulness to the masses not to improve performance, but to foster self awareness and more compassion. As a professor of sport, exercise and performance Psychology at West Virginia University. He guides his students in their mindfulness research, and he teaches classes at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. He and his colleagues have published two books focused on the integration of mindfulness into sport environments. Sam also happens to be my former advisor, we really dive deep into the nature of mindfulness and the value of having both formal and informal ways of cultivating that presence. And Sam also really talks about the value of grief, why enthusiasm is a game changer, and why we really shouldn't get too precious with the how and when of mindfulness practice. I had an absolute blast having this conversation, and I really hope you enjoyed as much as I did. Now, let's get to the show. Well, Sam, thank you so much for being on the show. Really excited to have you here. Excited to be here to kick things off, because we've known each other for a while. And this is a question that's been burning for me since we met in 2009. And it's important to me, because I think I've heard you go both directions with this. How do you pronounce your last name?
Sam Zizzi 02:03
Z Z, the true Italian way!
Pete Kadushin 02:06
The true Italian way? All right, I just needed to ask the hard hitting question first, so that we could get it out of the way. And now it should be smooth sailing from here. So you know, it's tough. You You were my dissertation advisor all the way through that process. And to not know exactly how to use your last name, I had to default to Dr. z. So this is years of tension resolved.
Sam Zizzi 02:31
I'm so glad we can get that out of the way early in the session.
Pete Kadushin 02:33
That's big. That's big. And so to then jump into the next question, a lot of our conversation likely will revolve around mindfulness. And so to jump in, I'm really curious to get a sense of where you first kind of contacted the ideas or the concepts of mindfulness and what got you onto the middle path?
Sam Zizzi 02:54
Yeah, I mean, two different answers here. I first encountered it when I was in freshman seminar as an undergraduate, we were assigned to read four different books that year. And one of them have to be the Tao Te Ching Translation by Stephen Mitchell. I remember reading that book as a young man and not understanding a word of it. So my initial encounter to that tax was I have no idea what Lao Tzu is talking about. And I simply was not evolved enough in my thinking, in my really my experience in life to understand so but for some reason, I kept that book, you know, all the books in my undergraduate career, I might have kept a handful out of all those classes I took, but for some reason, that book remained in the box that traveled through many different states. And it's kept a state into graduate school. And then I remember encountering another book that was more sports, psychology, specific sacred hoops, Phil Jackson co authored, and that was the right time to sort of encounter that Eastern thinking. So I really like to think of it two different ways. My initial was really the thinking about it, and being exposed to the ideas of Eastern philosophy in a different way of a different cultural way of thinking and doing. But I didn't really learn the lesson until the experience of burnout. So the when I burned out in the middle of graduate school, that experience of, you know, working a ton and sacrificing personal health, personal relationships for work. And then seeing the consequences of that and then basically being forced to change the way of working my method of working it was really the experience where I found the middle path and sort of forced myself to stay and determine what that would be sort of what's a realistic way to do one thing at a time to not overwork to have space for or relationships, social connections, music, healthy sort of living? Yeah, it was sort of about 22, 23 years ago, that experience was fundamental.
Pete Kadushin 05:14
I'm interested if you have any sense of what there was about that book that kept it in the box when so many others got left behind.
Sam Zizzi 05:25
Yeah, like the simplicity of it, you know, if you've ever picked up a copy of the towel, it's not very long. It's not it, you can stick it anywhere, you could probably put it in your back pocket. You know, it's a series of poems, and riddles. And so it was easy to transport number one, but there was something about me, I'm a very practical person, I like the simplicity of what he was trying to say. And I don't know, maybe I just sort of felt that it needed to stay stick around until I was going to be smart enough or old enough to figure out what was in that translation. So yeah, I think it was the simplicity and the directness of it, which you know, me well enough to know how much I appreciate that had I encountered maybe like, some of the Indian texts that are more Buddhist that are sort of more flowery and wrapped up in a lot of different stories and tales, I'm not sure at that moment, I kept that. But there was something about the very sort of Chinese austerity of that text that hit me.
Pete Kadushin 06:27
And so even as you're reading it, and not really understanding how it applies to your experience, and if I had read it, as a freshman in college, I think I would have been in a very similar boat like, this is interesting, I don't have any idea what it means. And there was a part of you that recognized or resonated with it enough that it was worth keeping around, and then sort of the series of hits that came after that with sacred hoops, and then your direct experience with burnout that led you to actually try on some of the concepts and let them meet real life.
Sam Zizzi 07:03
Yeah, and I was very passionate about psychology in general, I had a feeling this was gonna connect maybe later, you know, it was just it was, I don't know, I felt it was an essential resource. I was a guy who always got into the classic literature, I was never a reader of like, current authors. And I didn't read to read. But I was always interested in what I would consider the classic literature. So there was something about that classic element of that this is old enough that it's made it this far that maybe I should pay attention to that, too. So there was an element of that for me as well, like, I'm going to become an academic. I'm studying psychology. Yeah, there was something there.
Pete Kadushin 07:41
This is actually one of the early ways that we connected. Once I got over the fear of sitting in your office, I got a chance to look around. And I saw this, as well as Zen in the art of helping sitting on your desk facing out towards any student who came in. And I was like, oh, what, what's that? And you actually, I think, let me take your marked up copy home, and read a little bit before I bought my own copy. And that that may have really helped set a trajectory that I didn't know at the time was being set. So that was interesting that we started with the Tao.
Sam Zizzi 08:15
Yeah, it is it's pretty good tie, it's a thread that ties together there. It's those those books or anything I might leave out. It's an invitation to students, I'm not the kind of person that's going to force those lessons on on people. But when students come in, and the moment is right, that's when I would, you know, offer that invitation. I sort of borrowed that from Dr. Etzel, as you know, he had a way of giving the right book or the right quote to someone to a student or a mentor mentee at the right time. So that's fun to do.
Pete Kadushin 08:47
I think we may loop back around and think a little bit about mindfulness in the context of interpersonal relationships, which I'm hearing a lot of in that in that idea of knowing when it's the time to move, and when it's the time to be still. And before we get there, I want to rewind a little bit and get a sense of a little bit of your performance story. And so if we were going to write your book, what would some of the major chapter headings or sections look like? And this doesn't have to just be sport based, but really, as you think of performance from a more broader level, I'd be curious to see how that's unfolded.
Sam Zizzi 09:26
Yeah, when I thought about this question, a lot and I guess the first chapter would just be temper You know, that's where I encountered my sports psychology struggles when I was a high school athlete, I simply could not manage my emotional state. You know, and so, you know, for a variety of reasons family history, personality. So my initial encounter with sports psychology and complete lack of mindfulness, complete lack of stillness would be in trying to manage a temper playing tennis, playing golf, playing basketball, where I often assume that was due to external events, you know, my competitors, or, you know, something that bad that happened a bad line call or a bad referee call, you know, I simply could not manage my emotional state in those moments, which of course, led to just many performance disaster. So it's some sort of con combination of temper and just absolute performance disasters that could be in textbooks about like, this is how you don't manage the psychological part of your game. So I was just so frustrated with myself, that and I was just so interested in that, and I could not get over it that. And I certainly had no idea I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't even know what to try as a young man on how to manage that no one was guiding me that we didn't have any good coaching, there was no open access, it was pre internet, you know, didn't have a chance. I couldn't even have googled, you know, how can I stop losing my mind on the tennis court? There's no, you know, that's what most 17 year olds would do this day, right? They would just Google is like, I cannot stop choking in tennis or whatever. There was no option of that as well. So it wasn't until I took like psych 101 and started to take some other courses. Okay. Maybe there's hope here and self discovery. So I guess the first chapter is just simply emotional turbulence and, you know, temper and understanding that, and then the next phase would be have something to do with self awareness. Just Okay. What is it about me that's causing this understanding my own patterns of thinking, being able to actually pause and take time, I wouldn't, I wasn't doing any specific mindfulness practice, but I was exposed to as you know, probably a 20 year old 20, or 21, year old, rational emotive therapy and sort of the ideas about thought, causing emotion and that being connected to behavior. And at that time, it was pretty radical. For me to be faced with the, you know, reality of Oh, my God, you mean it, like, it's me that's responsible for this temper. I was like, This is terrible. It's a terrible conclusion, but I think it's right. You know, so that was like, the first time I was like, Oh, my gosh, I really got it, you know, so, so then I really, at that point, knew I was going into sports psychology, knew I was going to do something that involves helping other people, you know, direct their, the way they think, and their moods, so I was like, I gotta have to get a handle on this, my myself. So that, you know, from around 2021, for, you know, the next five or 10 years, that was a big part of my, my own path that I was walking, besides getting professionally trained. That self awareness would be the next big phase, I suppose of my own performance, that's really in all domains, you know, of life, you know, fact, you know, being, you know, first it was like more of a student, right? And then, you know, as an athlete more amateur, like, noticing that, okay, this is nice to not be able to lose me lose my mind after a bad swing or a bad shot. And to be able to control some of that, so that it was, you know, the, what came after that? It's, it's what the chapters would be, I'm not really sure, Pete, what, what I would name those chapters, you know, so progressive stillness, maybe would be the third phase, progressive stillness that is sometimes baffling to my friends and partners around in my family that what? So yeah, I'm not sure if that answers all of the question or not?
Pete Kadushin 13:24
The question is really just an opportunity to open and see what comes out. And so it's the meta approach first, sort of the big picture, themes and threads that you were pulling out of your, your early sport experience, and then how that evolved into the performance as a student, then into a faculty member, but also as a friend, colleague, spouse, etc. I'm curious, that progressive stillness, what, what does that look like, that's so baffling to the people around you.
Sam Zizzi 13:59
You know, the baffling part would be to be able to not overreact to something that is small, medium, or large, you know, sort of the idea that things happen, and you don't have to react to them, which is, I think, a very uncommon attitude among pretty much everybody and certainly my family, but even the the broader sense that, that you don't have to react to something that either is stressful or might be stressful. Certainly, I have no real problem at this point in my life, reacting to something that might be stressful. Like, we don't know all the information. We're not really sure about all the facts here yet. But if we did, then yes, that might be a stressful thing. Well, you know, maybe a child that has early signs of something that could be a problematic health diagnosis, but you really don't know enough yet, like, so I remember a friend of mine, saying her mother had a phrase wait to worry, like, Oh, that's a great phrase. You basically, just always apply that. And that's, that's sort of my approach. So that's a baffling approach to all of my family really, because that you know that you know, that it's, it's maybe culturally very common to get worked up in drama, and people can reinforce that drama and you can enhance your suffering, let's just say, with that particular approach, so, which is really not what I'm trying to do you know what I mean, let's just not, I don't know, it's not my MO.
Pete Kadushin 15:29
It always struck me, that, that that same directness that you valued, and a certain amount of matter of factness, but the thing that could cause any sort of pain or suffering isn't here, and so I don't understand why we're bringing it into the equation. And it didn't have to be more complicated than that.
Sam Zizzi 15:47
Exactly, it's all comes razor simplest solution is, you know, often quite direct, and so that, you know, at the same time, I will say, you know, that's a character logical trait, you know, my own self awareness, that is not possible for many people, the ability to sort of be very sort of rational, and maybe not emotional in the initial reaction, that's more of like a, something that's coming from me and become more aware that how that can create problems as well. You know, in terms of interpersonal relationships, or delayed reactions, there can be negative consequences, at least on the short term of that particular approach. But eight or nine times out of 10, it's quite useful for cooling things down, if there's a if there's a stress situation, or if I'm helping somebody else, I can usually sort of be be the anchor, you know, so it's like, I could be the one that's, you know, it's the difference between being an anchor and being a kite, you know, in terms of some people the winds really blowing hard, right? The, you know, the kite is just gonna be, you know, flap and but right, I'm the, I'm the, oftentimes can, my personality style is going to be the anchor for someone like that. So if they attach the kite there, yeah, it can be weapon into whim, but it's not going to get carried off across the field, if you will. So that's the way I sort of feel like I can function in some relationships with people who are perhaps more neurotic, or really struggle with the emotional pieces, I can simply just sit down and be be the anchor, they can attach to that for a while, and then you know, they choose to not be attached, that's okay, you know, but
Pete Kadushin 17:33
Can you square something up for me, because the first chapter was temper and sort of this emotional dysregulation. And now, you're also sharing that, from a characterological standpoint, right? Now, you're able to actually approach things from a little bit more of a detached standpoint, maybe a little more logical as opposed to inhabiting the emotional side. And so it sounds like an evolution. And I'm wondering, and this is a deeper conversation about personality and, and how personality evolves, how much of that has been trained over time, and how much of it was maybe laying underneath your emotional reactions as you were younger?
Sam Zizzi 18:11
Yeah, and a lot of, you know, development in that area, I would say, my, my nature is to be calmer, and steadier. But the environment in which I was raised in through about 18 was quite unstable from an emotional and it was a very intense, emotional environment. So then, I was in through adolescence, now having teenagers at home, adolescence is an emotionally turbulent time, and a lot of changes are happening and your body is expanding, and you're getting, you know, more buttons at the control panel, if you will, from the the Pixar movie, right. So, yeah, I sort of had a magnified teenage experience, you know, like, take that normal teenage experience, where you're trying to sort yourself out, and I got, you know, times three, or four. But once I got out of that, and I started to learn some of these new skills, I think I was able to really have separation, you know, in the concept of being diffused in mindfulness literature of from the experience, so I'm standing beside the stream instead of being in the stream, then that was super helpful in a lot of life moments to be able to make clear decisions. And so yeah, I think I was taken sort of away from my nature. But that did, unfortunately, for me, resulting in a lot of, you know, maybe clinical outcomes where it may have someone else would have had a more anxious nature, a more sort of neurotic type of personality in my home life environment. You know, that could have resulted in a lot of other negative consequences perhaps. Yeah, but for me, I was I felt like okay, I was able to recover from that. Maybe more quickly. Yeah, just data genetics. Maybe luck. I don't know.
Pete Kadushin 19:59
So we've been talking at and around mindfulness. And it would be useful since there's as many different definitions of mindfulness as there are human beings on the planet. If If you would be willing to share your personal definition of what mindfulness is.
Sam Zizzi 20:16
Okay, sure, you know, and obviously, I've studied it now from both angles, both the personal angle personal growth, and, you know, in sports psychology, we've written about it, you know, more of the academic, sort of term, right. So ultimately, I think, I think of mindfulness as part of, you know, a way of being where you're putting a lot of your energy and emphasis into the present moment. And there are some characteristics of that present moment that are very important so that you're sort of open and soft, or it is a flexible sort of attitude versus being hard and rigid, and judging about that experience. So there's sort of a quality, not only is there sort of the Act purposefully of bringing your attention to the moment, but there's a quality of that attention. So you have to sort of do it in an intentional way. And there's just a softness underneath that almost like a like a feminine energy that comes into that moment, if you will, as opposed to a sort of a harsh or aggressive or a traditionally more masculine energy. The thing that's often missed in those definitions in the academic sense of the word is that there is a there's a warmth or an energy that occurs when you bring that attention, and the right particular type of attitude into the moment. And it's often referred to like, as sort of a flame, you know, you bring it, it's like the idea of lighting a match. Okay, so the initial effort to bring it into the present is you just like that match. And we've all done that. And so if you stood there with it for a little while, it will eventually go out or burn your fingers, or whatever, right. So you just last just a few seconds, or certainly not more than 10 or 15 seconds. But over your practice of mindfulness, if you're able to then light more of a, you know, a small campfire, or you have something that maybe can endure, every time you bring it back, that warmth sort of grows, and it's more sustaining. So that energy and warmth of mindfulness, I think is often missed in the very academic aspects of it. Really, that's the thing that's lacking. And when, when Mark Andersen and I wrote our book in 2017, we really tried to bring that a little bit more of that flavor of the Buddhist elements of mindfulness into what has become the more sort of reductive and packaged versions of microphones, which can still be useful, but it was we felt it was lacking in that flavor. So Alright, long definition, but you know, attention to the present certain quality of that attention, and then a particular sort of change in the energy of that moment as well.
Pete Kadushin 23:01
Yeah, the the state shift doesn't get nearly enough attention. In terms of the the qualitative, the weather, not just between your ears, but sort of in the space around you, and how that can radiate out, doesn't get talked about very often, I find that the other thing that gets left behind right when it gets packaged down is that it becomes a lot about the present moment, which obviously is an important component to mindfulness practice. But you can be present and harsh, judgmental, rigid, and it's going to bounce you right out of the present moment you arrive, you get the conditions that you didn't want, right, so you either don't like it, or you like it too much, and you're super attached. And then you're immediately yanked out of the present moment. Because you've you've essentially set demands on how things ought to be. And so it's sort of in layers, you start with that present moment, capacity to arrive here, direct your energy here. And then you can add that compassionate, accepting, softer energy to go with it. And then I think the last piece that arrives is is that that sense of warmth, or that shift of state that comes when you marry those two things together, does that does that track for you?
Sam Zizzi 24:17
That tracks, and the energy will be felt! Right? So in sports, it's very easy for athletes and coaches to understand that third piece, which is if you ever have a captain or a coach, stand up and who really is charismatic and can connect it is felt it's not just the words that that person is saying. But, you know, we've all had that experience in our romantic relationships as well, where you sort of simply have the connection of eyes, where presence is there and there's no judgment, there's simply some energy there's magic that is present so that that third piece I think is really well understood among athletes and coaches. It's it is that second piece that is the most challenging part. coaches can get athletes to the present in a lot A lot of different ways athletes can whack a rubber band on the wrist, or smack their leg, if they're a tennis player, they can get to the present. But they have no idea what to do, once they're in the present! They have no idea how to direct their thoughts or what to do with them. And so it is the middle part. You know, that is the greatest challenge for all of us. Really?
Pete Kadushin 25:22
Yeah. Yeah, you arrive at the present moment you go, man, I don't like any of this. And then you're back to lala land,
Sam Zizzi 25:28
Right! Yeah, cuz maybe you're, you don't like what you're feeling in the present moment. And you just like, you know, whether that's a person or an athlete, and we're so used to just get rid of pain, get rid of grief, not not feel it. I mean, you could argue that, that lack of ability to cope with feeling whatever anxious, depressed, sad, is the is the root behind many of the various epidemics we're facing in the country, including opioids, and all sorts of other issues over use of all kinds of medications. And so the inability, and I've heard it said before, the inability of a person to sit in a room quiet with their own thoughts is sort of the fundamental problem of modern society. So I sort of agree with that sentiment that many of the students and athletes that I interact with that are in this particular generation, and would also be true, I think of many Millennials are not comfortable, being quiet and sitting with whatever's happening, the experience of their, their life. And that becomes a fundamental problem of modern living, if you can't be alone in a room with yourself for five minutes. This is a problem,
Pete Kadushin 26:38
Well, and with the world that we have today, we don't actually ever have to be alone for many of us, right, there's always within arm's reach something that we can be doing, whether it's smartphone, tablet, TV, fill in the blank, that could take us away from having to be with ourselves. And, and another thing I picked up on was, and it's not just sitting with our thoughts, they This is a split that I think you've already talked towards. But another issue that comes up and around mindfulness is that it starts very thought heavy, because you notice a lot of the thoughts that are coming up as you sit and be quiet for five minutes. But we miss the feeling component, and being able to engage the feeling component. And I think it's easy then to use mindfulness as a way of trying to skate over the top of the feelings and avoiding ever having to develop emotional intelligence or emotional fitness, and get a little bit of that spiritual bypass going on.
Sam Zizzi 27:36
Yeah, it's, to me, there's two types of awareness that are very important for people who are young, in the mindfulness path to understanding you do need to have some cognitive brain awareness of Oh, okay. Yeah, that that is how I think and Oh, yes, those are issues that are interesting, these are patterns of thought. But that those are less relevant than what's occurring in the heart, in terms of that, that feeling of it's very difficult to tune into that level of awareness. It's sort of like somebody who wants to change their exercise behavior, right? So you have a lot of people that are thinking about it, they know, yeah, exercise would be good for me, I'd like to do that they have a lot of positive thoughts about what they're doing. But yet they continually struggle to be a physically active person. So like, they have these intentions, they have thoughts, they are aware of it here. But perhaps something in their life shifts they lose an uncle from they realize that died at 43. And here they are in their 20s. And they have an instantaneous level of awareness that if they do not become more physically active, because of their family history, they're going to also die in their 40s. So that level of awareness that is straight to the heart, you don't need to like work on changing, you don't need to like I'm working on it. You know, that's what people will say, Oh, I'm working on being more mindful. Like no, all you need to do is be more mindful. There's, you don't need to think about it. You don't need to like develop a plan. You don't need to join a group, you don't you just need to do it.
Pete Kadushin 29:11
So it's the that shift from above the neck to below the neck and knowing in two different ways. And then really the speed at which change can happen when something finally penetrates down below the neck into your heart.
Sam Zizzi 29:27
Yeah, and sometimes I think for me, those lessons have come through grief. You know, because they're, you know, they they make urgency clear. Right. So I think that underneath of much, much of the Zen tradition more like Japanese style or Chinese style Zen tradition, which is which is all sort of emanating out of the same pot over there and Eastern philosophy, but it's much more blunt and direct on the present moment and your current experience and it is an actual urgency to take advantage of the moment because you know, no future moment in their mind would be considered to be guaranteed. Right? So you know, it's there. There's an urgency that is often missed with the discussion, the academic discussion of mindfulness or people working on it, "Yeah, I want to do that". But, you know, to be truly mindful, it's urgent, like right now, this conversation we're having, it's the only thing that matters, and the only thing is guaranteed is what's happening right now. So, you know, for the listeners, it's it's thinking of, today, this is the day it's the best day of the year, it's the only day of the year. That's it.
Pete Kadushin 30:39
This is actually I didn't realize it at the time, but I guess I was training to have a podcast because we were sitting at lunch, it was like, right at the end of my experience, my whole PhD. And I asked you some question around, like, if you gave a last lecture, what would it be? And this was actually what you talked about was this idea of scarcity of time. And understanding, the urgency around that, and that this is something that most people miss, is it it's not something that you ought to do tomorrow, because tomorrow is not guaranteed. And it's not something you should do and an hour from now, because an hour from now is not guaranteed. And so there doesn't have to be this whole, foreplay around getting to the present moment, you could just arrive in a finger snap.
Sam Zizzi 31:26
Absolutely. Yeah. And it happened to me, I'll tell you a funny story. It happened to me while I was watching Seinfeld, like 15 years ago, where this this particular lesson, you know, is cemented in my brain and it will never go away. So I have a very strong relationship with my mom. My mom is older than most people's mom. So like she's, she had me when I was when she was quite old. And so I was having a conversation with my mom, this is like 15 years ago. And I'm watching Seinfeld at the same time. Now Seinfeld, one of my favorite shows of all time, I mean, I know all the episodes. And so it's very distracting for me to try to watch Seinfeld, and have a conversation with my mom. And my mom does live in the same town as me. So you know, I need to check on her. And I like to talk to her a couple days a week. And I noticed during this conversation that I was not paying attention to my mom. Right at the time, I think she was probably about 75, you know, in fairly good health. And I realized I had I had sort of one of those insightful things were hitting me straight to the heart, like you got to cut this out. Like this could be the last conversation you have with your mom. I mean, she's 75, you know, any, certainly any of us could die tomorrow. But as you get into your 70s and 80s. And now my mom is 90, that clearly is could happen tomorrow, it could be the last conversation. So I remember after that every single time I talk to my mom, after that, I really, really try to go to an environment where the only thing I'm doing is talking to my mom. And so it's just one simple thing that you could do in terms of people trying to become more mindful is to whether you're sitting with somebody in person or talking with them on the phone, or, or FaceTime or whatever, just let that be the only thing. So very simple thing to do. It's not, you don't need to learn to meditate, you don't need to become a monk and move to Tibet, you don't need to do those things.
Pete Kadushin 33:16
And it really speaks to this idea that you doesn't need to take the time... any longer than it needs to take. And I think we trap ourselves in the well once I have a formal practice. And man, that's really hard. And so I'll do it tomorrow, right. But once I have 20 minute a day practice, then I'll be mindful. And in the meantime, and I'm speaking from personal experience, like I'd be on the phone with my parents, and I'd be playing a video game in the background. And it wasn't like, intense video game, but it was still something occupying my attention in a way that didn't allow me to be present. And so realizing, you know, if I go around telling people that the present moment is important and coaching people on that. And then I'm not actually living that experience myself. There's there's something to be said there. And it didn't have to take any longer than turning off the video game.
Sam Zizzi 34:07
Yeah, no, there's two pieces here that are important though there's this behavior are informal things that you can do that allow you to learn to be more mindful, you know, so I could, for example, decide I'm going to be in the zoom meetings that we're all in right now. And I'm going to have my email open and I'm going to do that sort of stuff on the side or not. So you have these sort of informal things that I would refer to as either multitasking or single tasking, you have all these opportunities to single tasks. So if people want to get better, they should pick a couple things small that they just single task every day, you know, little things like that. But at the same time, there are massive benefits that could occur from a formal practice that are sort of unknown to each of us. So what what you may discover through your formal practice of mindfulness or yoga or sitting, whatever it is that you're doing has tremendous value to you. Because that's self awareness that you could develop could shape a lot of things. So I think when you talk about models, it is important to identify both pieces, you could become more mindful. And it would take a long time doing just small things, like every time I go to a water fountain or the bathroom or have a conversation with Mom, I'm gonna try to be more mindful that would help you, you might improve, you know, one 2%, every, every year, formal practice, though may may result in more leaps and bounds type of changes, I suppose.
Pete Kadushin 35:39
And so becomes the dual threat. Yeah, so the, the, the price of entry is low, right? I can just single task something or maybe a couple of things today. And that'll get the ball rolling. But that a formal practice really supports and deepens that in a meaningful way. And following on that, then what what is a formal practice look like for you? And then what are the benefits that are uniquely yours from that practice?
Sam Zizzi 36:07
Yeah, and I'll share some of that... I don't want to share all that personal information necessarily, but formal practice for me is through yoga and yoga breathing. So my, probably now what, you know what year it is now, COVID, it really scrambles the mind, doesn't it? I'd say, eight or nine years now I have close to a daily practice of morning yoga, sometimes that includes sitting, depending on what's going on. And so that's, I learned to breathe sort of in a yogic way, primarily through the nose. And so I think the, what that's done for me physically is just, I feel like my parasympathetic response, that sort of dilation has really strengthened over the course of so the repetition of, you know, five, six days a week of doing that simple thing, 10 minutes a day, has has changed in ways that I wouldn't have observed day to day, but you would like month to year. Then in terms of some of the other meditative stuff, that those are open meditations are following guided meditations, it's more of the personal insights that allow you to then make decisions about what you should be or should not be doing with your personal life, your professional life, because the decisions, I guess seemed more obvious. I don't know. That's the way I think about it, because it's coming sort of gut level. It's like, and I really, really trust in that feeling that I get. I don't worry about the consequences that decisions have I feel it coming from the right source? I'm not worried about Oh, is it too soon to do that as a too late? Should I wage that thought to nine people like a sort of really trust in that? That aspect? So I guess it has helped me trust in the decisions that I need to make, you know, the big ones, you know, should I move? Should I take that job? Should I be with this person? Right? Should I what what decision should I make as a parent? Like the big ones? I'm not talking about what, you know, what kind of coffee should I get tomorrow morning, those sort of decisions?
Pete Kadushin 38:13
Yeah, I remember really distinctly you sharing with me that when you get all the bullshit out of the way, the bigger decisions or the easy decisions. And it, you're adding a layer here by describing sort of getting out of out of your head and into your gut and allowing the space through whatever practice, you develop, and for you, and the yoga, and the breathing, that allows you to connect with the part of your body that has an idea already that knows. And if that message is strong enough that you don't really concern yourself with all the extra what ifs, and you're able to take action.
Sam Zizzi 38:53
Yeah, the space, you have to create some space for that to occur. Some people are the athletes walking and running is also fine, you know, the, the repetition of the same route, which I think is something I've also commonly do would be walk certain loops in my town or my neighborhood. And that's when perhaps those some of that thought can occur. It's not like I'm actively chewing on something, but it's just there on the back burner. And same thing happens with daily yoga. The other thing that's interesting about doing something every day, at about the same time is you can observe the changes in your energy patterns, your mood states. And it that's just a very interesting thing to observe. Because you could still be a very productive person on a day you felt like crap, or a day that you did not sleep well or a day you're experiencing profound grief or whatever it might be. And when you repeat that, you know, you don't just do mindfulness in reaction to a stressful event, for example, or you don't, you don't do something in reaction to it. It becomes a bit more like oh, that's kind of interesting. Like, you know what... it's another 24 hours, I'm thankful for that 24 hours. And, Man, I wish I felt better today, but, you know, I'm still gonna be a parent, I'm going to work today, like sort of thing, like, you're able to notice patterns that are very important, I think, to establishing sort of a level of sort of calm underneath of all the variations that we all experience, day to day, week to week, year to year, I think those that experience and that the repetition of some kind of doesn't have to be every single day, of course, but some sort of daily and weekly practice creates a little bit of space for that brain to like, kind of do what it needs to do. It's almost like an unconscious process that's occurring, and it it will put in front of you, hey, you're going to call it a sort of get reminded to do this, or, hey, why aren't you doing that, or, and so, I'm a big believer that life is gonna continue to teach you the same lesson over and over and over again, until you actually take that advice. So, so I can't say that every time I've picked it up the first time that, that's for sure. But I do believe you will continue to learn the lesson that you need to learn until you figure it out.
Pete Kadushin 41:18
Well and it sounds like there's a quality here of being your own anchor, as you're also the kite, that there's an ability to create a some stability at that foundational level. So that even on days where you're feel like you're being whipped around, that there's still just a more solid feeling that you can work there into, I'm still showing up to work, I'm still going to be the best parent I can be. and connecting that to the urgency, right? If this is the only day that I get, right? It doesn't, it matters how I started the day, and it doesn't need to dictate the way that I live my day. And the way I interact as I go through it.
Sam Zizzi 41:58
You know, I think another part that we haven't talked a lot about, and is, there's joy in all of those moments. So I think is often missed. So even when I've had struggling days, or I have a partner who's struggling or upset or depressed, or a kid is at a really difficult day, there's a still joy underneath of that moment to be accessed. You know, with time and effort there that you if you really put it there, there's still things you could be thankful for and grateful for. And there's, there's joy in every moment, if you're able to find it. And I think that's something that's lost a lot of people because they want to throw away the whole thing, you know, if it's a crappy moment, or a bad day, or whatever's happened, like, you know, just the other day, I was like, beaten up from a bad night's sleep. And it seemed like everything was kind of going against me and like, the food we picked up was a half hour late, like all the stupid stuff like first world big problems. And it was just such a beautiful day of time I had spent with my kids and like, you know, there was just both were coexisting at the same time. And I could have clearly allowed much of the negative energy and mood states to trump everything else and I could have clearly, you know, acted out or been a jackass to my children or a bad parent, that a lot of those opportunities were right there to do those things. And somehow I was able to avoid most of them, certainly, probably not all, but yeah, that that aspect that I've learned probably just more in the last four or five years is how to sort of cultivate that, that joy in every sort of situation, you know, you don't have to wait until the big trip to the national park or to Europe or the Caribbean to experience that joy, you know, the joy can be present in the morning coffee with your wife or working on homework with your 12 year old.
Pete Kadushin 43:54
And the softness that you talked about earlier, that ability to allow the suck to exist and not have to negate that while at the same time joy can be a part of the the big equation as well. And so not always having to zero out and say, Well, if if this much suck is going on, and then this much happening, well, I just I'm neutral, but you can feel both of them for the quality that they bring to the table. And they don't actually have to collide with each other in a conflictual way. And that for me is a key struggle as I move through my own mindfulness experience.
Sam Zizzi 44:29
Yeah, I think you know, you can even take that another you can take it farther Pete. The idea is that the struggle makes creates the joy so that nothing is no different than you know, we live I live in West Virginia, we have all four seasons. Spring is appreciated specifically because it comes on the heels of winter. If spring came in the middle of summer, we'd kind of like you know what, what's this like? It's a little cooler or weather's mixed, but the idea that suffering all of the tragedies in life, most of my tragedies have yielded massive, positive joy. So it's almost To me, it's a classic yin yang thing that people sort of Oh, yeah, it's beautiful. It's the Yin Yang, you know, so I have that symbol around a lot, just to remind myself of that. And that they are the actually they're the same, right? You know, if you look at that circle of yin yang, the dark and the lighter are the same. They're one part of the circle. And so the ability to experience joy emerges from the experience of, wow, gosh, I remember. I remember that. And I like, and so it's actually easier for me, to experience joy and to appreciate joy when I'm experiencing suffering.
Pete Kadushin 45:54
I'm gonna, I'm gonna carry that one with me, because it did reframe how I was thinking about those two things in relationship, for sure.
Sam Zizzi 46:03
Yeah, they're a part of the same circle. And I've been, you know, you can think of it a weird way. But I've been lucky enough to experience some pretty significant grief in my life, and those experiences have helped me see that in a much more urgent or clear way. So it always made me think of, you know, I had a I had a student who was Chinese. And she shared with me sort of a parable from Chinese culture, which is, you're, you're lucky if you have a difficult life. So they would have the idea that if you had an easy life, then you're not making you don't have these opportunities to evolve. And, you know, to sort of, they say, sort of, many of them might believe in reincarnation and the next version. So the idea is, if you're presented with challenges, how lucky Are you that you now get the opportunity to evolve to tackle those challenges. And it's just a very different orientation. That, I suppose in the Christian tradition, there is the idea that, you know, Christian God would not put in your life more than you could handle, I've certainly heard that come from Christian tradition, it's just a different take on the same kind of idea that you do have it in you, you're, you're capable. You never present it with more than you're capable. But I don't think we in Western culture are taught about the value of grief, the necessary need to like experience, that sort of anxiety, depression, stress, and what can be yielded. It's almost like turning the soil over season to season. Without doing that. If you don't take time to do that, then you can't necessarily grow better and better crops.
Pete Kadushin 47:46
I mean, it's got resilience, cooked into it without having to go and get all technical and use the R word... which oftentimes, people push back on anyway. So my next question is what drives you absolutely bonkers when it comes to hearing people talk about mindfulness or how its taught? What kind of just grinds your gears? And and then maybe, how could we reframe it so that it sits a little bit better?
Sam Zizzi 48:16
I mean, I guess it's a disappointing answer a bit, but nothing really, I mean, it to the sense that I not nothing really grinds my gears about people using mindfulness or co opting it. I've thought about that, I'd say, That's not always been the case. But I think I settled on as sort of this as in, you know, one of my mentors, Mark Andersen, you know, sports psych, Professor extraordinare, pseudo retired. And we sort of came to the conclusion that, well, you know, what, even a little bit of mindfulness is better than none. And so it doesn't really grab my gears that they missed the, you know, if I, many of our students in the field of sports psychology and young professionals, they encounter mindfulness via sports psych. So not like they're going to the source material in India, or China, like they encounter because they get introduced to it, and they read an article about it. And then they found, you know, one of the programs that are published in the literature that has to do with mindfulness, so they're getting it in a reductive way. So it makes a lot of sense to me, while they might initially understand it, in a very reductive sort of way, and that's okay. Like, I think we have to be careful of like the, the Imperial notion of mindfulness that it must be done in a certain way. And like, you know, oh, yeah, you gotta cultivate and if you're not meditating, doing open meditation for X number of minutes a day, you're not really even doing it that probably annoys me more than anything else, actually, the the high and mighty mindfulness people that you know, you must do it this way. And it's just like, you know, you have to talk about it or write about it. It's really about fundamentally about the experience, the mindfulness, it's all a lot simpler than we, then we make it.
Pete Kadushin 50:04
I knew there had to be something in there that created a little bit of friction. We got it. We got there. It was just maybe the way I phrased The question was causing the friction, as if I was I was standing on top of the mountain, sorry, sitting in lotus position on top of the mountain asking the question! And this is this is a trap that I've fallen into, particularly as I've deepened my own practice is this sense of, well, if you're not really committed to it, then you're obviously not committed to it. And the truth that arriving in the present moment, with a softness or a non judgmental attitude, and that that feeling of warmth, this state shift that comes with it can grow out of anything, whether it's walking, sitting, running, playing your sport, listening to music, and that there's really no ownership that can be taken on on that quality and that that experience.
Sam Zizzi 50:59
Yes, you have to have space somewhere for that to occur. Now you can do it purely through single tasking if the idea of meditating or doing these other things doesn't appeal to you, and you find it very anxiety provoking or uncomfortable, you know, I certainly wouldn't encourage people to go that pathway. So you can single task it, you can do it very informally. And that would be, that would be okay. I don't want to underestimate the value of a formal practice can have great value, as we have talked about already, it can produce insights, that maybe some of those other things will not produce. Because there's just more space, you're creating a little extra time, there's not as much stuff going on, and you're not actively doing something, there is something to be said for doing one thing and just being in the present. That's, that's flow, right. That's sports like that. That's the strongest connection for actual performance, which, you know, we haven't talked a whole lot about today. But certainly there is great value and excitement. And that's a highly motivating thing for athletes and coaches there. But you know, space and time are important. pausing, is important. So let's not miss that piece.
Pete Kadushin 52:08
That's maybe another conversation where we can we can aim at talking about goals and the goal this way, and how to reconcile those two things together. Well, and maybe not enough, not enough time right now...
Sam Zizzi 52:21
it is possible, it is possible.
Pete Kadushin 52:23
I'm still trying to figure it out, I've given plenty of talks around goal setting, and then non goal setting. And each time I feel like half of me is being an imposter. And so I'm never quite sure, beyond just letting those two things exist together without having to cancel any of them any of it out. I just, it's one of those thought exercises that bends me around a few times before I can climb out of the maze. Since I want to be mindful of time. I got one more question for you. Before the final question. And so I'm always curious about the beautiful moment, as it relates to performance. And again, performance is defined really broadly here. So it could be mentorship or teaching. It could be mountain biking, it could go all the way back to the experience of playing tennis, it can be anywhere, but what what is the beautiful moment for you? And And what about that is beautiful.
Sam Zizzi 53:24
Yeah, I a couple different aspects here. I have thought about this question quite a bit. I think, you know, from a sports standpoint, the beautiful moment is simply feeling the activity that you're doing, you know, so most recently, I can think of snowboarding and just simply merging. You know, and there's no thought about, it's just you and the board and the mountain and there's just a there's a sink that occurs that a lot of athletes are obviously trying and I remember that being a basketball player and those just beautiful moments of being in the zone and where there's just everything is sort of effortless. So that merging that occurs between your experience and then the the activity that you're doing i think is a is a is just a thing we all like seek, and we're many athletes and coaches are seeking. But but more broadly, I identify personally the idea of being enthusiasm in terms of the activity sort of that full sort of as much energy as you can get into the moment. So I'm a teacher, I'm an instructor. So if whether I'm meeting with a student or I'm in class, that merger for me is often triggered by excitement, joy and enthusiasm. And I remember reading the root of the word enthusiasm, so it's like a Greek word, right? Enthusiasm. And so it has something to do or connects translate as basically in the presence or with God. Theos, right? So the idea being that when you are bringing that energy, and you are enthusiastic about the activity, again, it's that whole energy element that's often missed about getting to the present. "Getting all of you in the room" as we might say, like in a sports like sense of things. That's the that's the magic for me because that's that's the those are the beautiful things. That's when stuff occurs. That's when we have amazing thoughts between a client and a, and a consultant, that's when you're in a class and the dialogue sort of, is felt by students, not just learned or words are said, but they feel something different. So I think that that enthusiasm, and figuring out, you know how you can get more of yourself in all of those moments that makes the fire bigger that we were talking about earlier. And it just it that fire is felt both by you, but in terms of you might enjoy that that might become intrinsically rewarding, which is great from a professional standpoint, but then for the people who you're with, or you might be trying to impact the that will be felt more easily than the single match.
Pete Kadushin 56:01
Well, I can I can speak from personal experience that I've felt that in your presence and and continue to appreciate the opportunities where you bring yourself and the enthusiasm and the energy to the table, particularly for this conversation, which has been a blast. As we wrap up, is there any place that you would like people to be able to find you or things that you'd want to tune people into as we as we close up?
Sam Zizzi 56:32
Not really, not really, they? I'm trying to, as my mentor, Dr. Ed Etzel, the true Zen master has taught me is trying to, as I most recently saw him he is His goal is to descend into Zen!
Pete Kadushin 56:49
Descend into Zen!
Sam Zizzi 56:51
So now, I mean, I think the good news about being having a last name as Z I Z Z I, is you can find me on the internet pretty easily. There just aren't many of me. So certainly, they can check me out on and drop me an email or they can look me up on Twitter occasionally. I'm an occasional Twitter at DoctorSizzle, so But yeah, I welcome those inquiries and would be happy to connect with people on on the mindfulness path.
Pete Kadushin 57:19
Beautiful. Well, until next time, thank you so much for spending the time bringing the energy and I'm gonna angle for round two, but I'll have that conversation some other time.
Sam Zizzi 57:29
That sounds good. I will consider such a thing of course from such a distinguished person as you Dr. K.
Pete Kadushin 57:34
Oh, shoot. Alright, well, that's that's a wrap! All right. That's it for today. If you liked this episode, make sure you subscribe to the show. And don't forget to rate and leave a review. If you want to dive deeper into the concepts and concrete practices from today, I'm talking access to show notes and the transcript for the episode and a whole bunch of other mental training goodies, head over to MTL dot Academy. That's MTL dot Academy. Each week, after the episode goes live, I'll also be sharing a worksheet that's going to help you level up your mindset and mental skills. And the only way to get access is through our weekly newsletter. So when you hit the bottom of the webpage, don't forget to sign up for that too. Until next time, be well
